Alex
Hall-of-Fame
Posts: 406
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Flair
Jan 31, 2009 19:58:06 GMT -5
Post by Alex on Jan 31, 2009 19:58:06 GMT -5
As for the complainers having thin skin, that's not true. Some of it gets out of hand I know but you mean to tell me you have never complained about something on this board. I also know how lucky I have it because N~Con is the one that got me started on the indys and I then soon found out about ROH, PWG, etc. So N~Con is the one to thank for that. The reason I didn't pay for Flair is because I think he only had a few actual wrestling matches, but that's just me. I definitely don't think Flair is the greatest compared to the likes of Kenta Kobashi, Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada, among more, but once again, that's just me. I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I also believe everyone is entitled to disagree with some one else's opinion. If I payed 75$ I would at least expect him to look up at me. Also, Rizz, I feal that guys like Claudio and Daniels are better then Flair and I would be happy to provide arguing points if you would like me to do so. I don't think the argument is that Ric Flair is the greatest wrestler of all time because of an overall technical skill, or because he could do a double flick flack hamel camel reverse shooting star 450 splash. I'm not even that big of a Flair fan, but it'd be hard to argue that anyone has done as much for the business as long as he has. At 59 he could still put on a decent match with anyone. Sure, in his later years maybe technically he didn't match up with the likes of a Daniels or a Claudio, but who would expect him to? Not to mention, without Flair doing what he did for the business and influencing as many young wrestlers as he did, maybe there wouldn't be a Claudio or a Daniels. Maybe wrestling itself wouldn't be what it is. I think every wrestling fan, regardless of what you think of him personally or in-ring talent-wise, owes him that respect.
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Flair
Jan 31, 2009 23:12:21 GMT -5
Post by stylesclash516 on Jan 31, 2009 23:12:21 GMT -5
As for the complainers having thin skin, that's not true. Some of it gets out of hand I know but you mean to tell me you have never complained about something on this board. I also know how lucky I have it because N~Con is the one that got me started on the indys and I then soon found out about ROH, PWG, etc. So N~Con is the one to thank for that. The reason I didn't pay for Flair is because I think he only had a few actual wrestling matches, but that's just me. I definitely don't think Flair is the greatest compared to the likes of Kenta Kobashi, Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada, among more, but once again, that's just me. I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I also believe everyone is entitled to disagree with some one else's opinion. If I payed 75$ I would at least expect him to look up at me. Also, Rizz, I feal that guys like Claudio and Daniels are better then Flair and I would be happy to provide arguing points if you would like me to do so. I don't think the argument is that Ric Flair is the greatest wrestler of all time because of an overall technical skill, or because he could do a double flick flack hamel camel reverse shooting star 450 splash. I'm not even that big of a Flair fan, but it'd be hard to argue that anyone has done as much for the business as long as he has. At 59 he could still put on a decent match with anyone. Sure, in his later years maybe technically he didn't match up with the likes of a Daniels or a Claudio, but who would expect him to? Not to mention, without Flair doing what he did for the business and influencing as many young wrestlers as he did, maybe there wouldn't be a Claudio or a Daniels. Maybe wrestling itself wouldn't be what it is. I think every wrestling fan, regardless of what you think of him personally or in-ring talent-wise, owes him that respect. Lets see here, all of his matches were the same. He takes a beating through 9/10 of the match then comes back with a figure 4, wins a belt, says woooo, then says where's the party tonight Arn? Some argue that he made guys look good doing it, but making guys look good and being a good wrestler are 2 different things. There are many wrestlers such as Harley Race, Bruno Sammartino, Honky Tonk Man, among others that say he is no where near the best of all time. Honky Tonk Man actually thinks he hurt the business and he brought up some good points. The only reason he is considered good is because he never fought guys like Kenta Kobashi, Mitsuharu Misawa, Toskiaki Kawada who would have knocked his head off and make him look like a fool. How many Triple Crown titles has Ric Flair held?? Here's a hint, 0. Guys like Claudio and Danielson are actually good wrestlers and Claudio can roll up a piece of toilet paper and make it look good and Daniels can damn near do the same. There is my argument.
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Flair
Jan 31, 2009 23:28:48 GMT -5
Post by Branden on Jan 31, 2009 23:28:48 GMT -5
I respect what he has done for the business but as a person I won't respect someone who can't even look up to see the person who just paid to meet him. Or the person who's book he is signing. Hell Claudio, Daniels, N~Con, Rowe, Jack Evans, AJ, Joe, , any other indy to major talent such as edge, foley, hbk, cena, Matt hardy, Kevin Nash, that I have met has at least looked me in the eyes and thanked me for being a fan or acknowledged me during a signing. Shima for instance took 20 mins to chat with my friend and I before the show. I'm not comparing Shima or any of the others mentioned to Flair but as far as their class they are miles ahead.
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Flair
Feb 1, 2009 8:27:19 GMT -5
Post by iwcpromoter on Feb 1, 2009 8:27:19 GMT -5
To answer stylesclash..
Just to give you an idea of how this will work in your future.
At some point, twenty years from now, there will be an argument on this board about why Bill Perry or Chris Hero Jr. or whoever is better than the guys you mentioned on your list.
You will argue for your guy as you have been a fan all of your life. In their later years, they wont be the same worker they once were, therefore the fan arguing with you will not recognize or understand their contribution to the wrestling business over their long career. The fan arguing with you will tell you all about the attributes of the person they have been a fan of for 3-4 years, while you will be arguing the attributes of someone who wrestled for 20-25 years.
Another huge difference, and this can not be argued, is how Ric Flair, as a performer, wrestler, etc. has transcended the sport. To me, that is what makes a true legend, and someone I would want to meet. Being bigger than the sport itself. To me, and to most wrestling fans and historians, the only ones that have really transcended the sport are Gorgeous George, Wahoo McDaniel, d*ck the Bruiser, Ric Flair, Bruiser Brody, Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, and the Rock (to a lesser extent Jerry Lawler and Mick Foley). There are obviously a few stars in Japan, like Antonio Inoki, Giant Baba, Riki Chosu, Tiger Mask, and Hiroshi Hase who have done so as well.
The point is, and I think this is often misunderstood by younger wrestling fans, is the difference between a wrestler and a performer. And its all if your point of view. Look at the series between Steamboat and flair from the 80's. Steamboat was an incredible wrestler, and Ric Flair was the incredible performer. And they made for some insane matches.
Stylesclash has a list of some pretty freaking great wrestlers. But with the exception of Misawa, I think they are all still working on becoming better performers (and they themselves will probably admit this). So they have a ways to go, and hopefully a long career to get there.
Just some food for thought.
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Flair
Feb 1, 2009 9:26:30 GMT -5
Post by stylesclash516 on Feb 1, 2009 9:26:30 GMT -5
To answer stylesclash.. Just to give you an idea of how this will work in your future. At some point, twenty years from now, there will be an argument on this board about why Bill Perry or Chris Hero Jr. or whoever is better than the guys you mentioned on your list. You will argue for your guy as you have been a fan all of your life. In their later years, they wont be the same worker they once were, therefore the fan arguing with you will not recognize or understand their contribution to the wrestling business over their long career. The fan arguing with you will tell you all about the attributes of the person they have been a fan of for 3-4 years, while you will be arguing the attributes of someone who wrestled for 20-25 years. Another huge difference, and this can not be argued, is how Ric Flair, as a performer, wrestler, etc. has transcended the sport. To me, that is what makes a true legend, and someone I would want to meet. Being bigger than the sport itself. To me, and to most wrestling fans and historians, the only ones that have really transcended the sport are Gorgeous George, Wahoo McDaniel, d*ck the Bruiser, Ric Flair, Bruiser Brody, Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, and the Rock (to a lesser extent Jerry Lawler and Mick Foley). There are obviously a few stars in Japan, like Antonio Inoki, Giant Baba, Riki Chosu, Tiger Mask, and Hiroshi Hase who have done so as well. The point is, and I think this is often understood by younger wrestling fans, is the difference between a wrestler and a performer. And its all if your point of view. Look at the series between Steamboat and flair from the 80's. Steamboat was an incredible wrestler, and Ric Flair was the incredible performer. And they made for some insane matches. Stylesclash has a list of some pretty freaking great wrestlers. But with the exception of Misawa, I think they are all still working on becoming better performers (and they themselves will probably admit this). So they have a ways to go, and hopefully a long career to get there. Just some food for thought. Damn, it's all fun and games until N~Con steps in! But seriously though, i'm pretty sure you mean Kawada instead of Misawa is working to be a better wrestler. I don't think Kawada cares about anything any more. Also N~Con, i'm defending guys like Hero, etc. because watch Flair vs. Steamboat then watch Hero vs. Punk 1 hour 25 minute match.
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Flair
Feb 1, 2009 10:51:52 GMT -5
Post by iwcpromoter on Feb 1, 2009 10:51:52 GMT -5
I am speaking of Misawa transcending the sport, as he much more well known outside of wrestling than Kawada
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ken
Hall-of-Fame
Posts: 248
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Flair
Feb 1, 2009 11:09:18 GMT -5
Post by ken on Feb 1, 2009 11:09:18 GMT -5
When I was growing up, Flair was the Man. Night upon night upon night of 1 hr Broadways, with every top contender the NWA had to throw at him. Many different men, all with different styles and he managed to elevate them all to his level. I think being able to make some one look good, being able to draw a good match out of someone not as talented and being able to bring them to your level is quite awesome. Flair had it all, the in ring talent, the look, the charisma, his psychology in being able to draw the fans into the match was always incredible, and the lifestyle of a true star, not just of wrestling, but of any star ... actors, athletes, who ever...his exploits outside of the ring are as well know as his work ethic. Another thing to consider was the schedule put upon the NWA champ back in the day...constantly traveling...a new town every night...I respect Punk and Hero, and everyone else who can get in the ring and entertain us, but I can't see where they are close, much yet better than what Ric has done. And when it comes down to it, putting an @$$ every 18 inches is what matters...and Flair draws.
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Flair
Feb 1, 2009 13:44:14 GMT -5
Post by therizzman on Feb 1, 2009 13:44:14 GMT -5
To answer stylesclash.. Just to give you an idea of how this will work in your future. At some point, twenty years from now, there will be an argument on this board about why Bill Perry or Chris Hero Jr. or whoever is better than the guys you mentioned on your list. You will argue for your guy as you have been a fan all of your life. In their later years, they wont be the same worker they once were, therefore the fan arguing with you will not recognize or understand their contribution to the wrestling business over their long career. The fan arguing with you will tell you all about the attributes of the person they have been a fan of for 3-4 years, while you will be arguing the attributes of someone who wrestled for 20-25 years. Another huge difference, and this can not be argued, is how Ric Flair, as a performer, wrestler, etc. has transcended the sport. To me, that is what makes a true legend, and someone I would want to meet. Being bigger than the sport itself. To me, and to most wrestling fans and historians, the only ones that have really transcended the sport are Gorgeous George, Wahoo McDaniel, d*ck the Bruiser, Ric Flair, Bruiser Brody, Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, and the Rock (to a lesser extent Jerry Lawler and Mick Foley). There are obviously a few stars in Japan, like Antonio Inoki, Giant Baba, Riki Chosu, Tiger Mask, and Hiroshi Hase who have done so as well. The point is, and I think this is often misunderstood by younger wrestling fans, is the difference between a wrestler and a performer. And its all if your point of view. Look at the series between Steamboat and flair from the 80's. Steamboat was an incredible wrestler, and Ric Flair was the incredible performer. And they made for some insane matches. Stylesclash has a list of some pretty freaking great wrestlers. But with the exception of Misawa, I think they are all still working on becoming better performers (and they themselves will probably admit this). So they have a ways to go, and hopefully a long career to get there. Just some food for thought. When I grow up I wanna grow up to be just like you, N~Con! I, actually, agree with all that you said right there. Flair isn't going to be high-flying, death-defying, suicidal, homicidal, genocidal, all of the things that these guys are pros at because he was Ric Flair, dammit! if you just came into the wrestling mark-hood a few years ago and you would only see him get his ass kicked and then, miraculously lock in the figure four to get the win. Heck, I remember listening to Mark Madden on Friday before the show and there was a match between Flair and one of the Von Erich's (I forgot which one) and Ric Flair carried Von Erich on his back to the point where Von Erich was supposed to put Flair in an abdominal stretch, he was so out of it (on who knows what) that Ric Flair, literally, put himself in the hold and made the match a fairly good match to watch, still, even with Von Erich high/drunk/spazzed off his mind. Flair was, is, and always will be the man amung men.
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Frown
Hall-of-Fame
Always buys his lip gloss at Limited Too.
Posts: 166
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Flair
Feb 3, 2009 13:59:49 GMT -5
Post by Frown on Feb 3, 2009 13:59:49 GMT -5
ya, Flair is a legend and unquestionably one of the greatest of all time. He made wrestling more interesting and was doing moves in his time period that have never been done before, and putting on matches in ways that no one had ever seen. And yes, making the other wrestler look good does make you a good wrestler. Plus, look at his character. His promos and personality is all that needs to be considered for anyone to realize that this guy is one of the greatest.
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Flair
Feb 4, 2009 22:48:14 GMT -5
Post by sigep111482 on Feb 4, 2009 22:48:14 GMT -5
ya, Flair is a legend and unquestionably one of the greatest of all time. He made wrestling more interesting and was doing moves in his time period that have never been done before, and putting on matches in ways that no one had ever seen. And yes, making the other wrestler look good does make you a good wrestler. Plus, look at his character. His promos and personality is all that needs to be considered for anyone to realize that this guy is one of the greatest. I can't agree more, Flair is definitely one of the greatest. And for the record, meeting Flair was awesome, and N~Con I thank you for bringing him in. I never thought I'd meet Ric Flair up until that moment. I feel bad for those who had that bad experience meeting him, and like Branden I did witness Flair trying to pick up young chick in front of her bf & family members, but I felt that was just Flair being Flair.
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Flair
Feb 5, 2009 1:56:17 GMT -5
Post by drwrestling on Feb 5, 2009 1:56:17 GMT -5
Just a few mention a few things about what Styles Clash has said throughout this thread and since it would be somewhat difficult to discuss each particular point that was made about Japanese wrestling, I'll try to just respond to the main points.
In some ways, comparing Flair to Misawa, Kawada, or Kobashi is like comparing apples to oranges because of how different the Japanese style is from the America style, which is a discussion for other thread or another time considering the many differences in each style that could effect how "good" a wrestler might seem in the ring. You had mentioned that Flair's matches are the same but have you seen any of Misawa's recent matches? He's so far past his prime it's almost sad. An example of this that some people on this board might have seen was his match against KENTA in ROH. The ONLY moves Misawa did the entire match were fore arms, a diving fore arm, and his finisher. That's literally it and 98% of the match was Misawa throwing fore arms. From what I've seen, Misawa just can't go in the ring at this point in his career. That's not trying to be negative about Misawa because as N~Con said, he is well known outside of wrestling and evidence of that is he's appeared in commercials in Japan. Flair however, was still able to go and stole the show with his retirement match so when it comes to being able to have good matches throughout a career, it would appear Flair is second to none but then again it's really all a matter of prospective.
You had mentioned that Flair hasn't won any triple titles or whatever but that is really completely irrelevant and really an invalid point because that would be like saying "how many WWE titles has Kobashi held?" or "how many NWA titles has Kobashi held?" Does not holding those particular titles make Kobashi any less of a legend? I don't think so and I don't think Flair not holding the triple title or whatever makes him any less of a legend either.
Finally, I've noticed that a lot of wrestling fans that have just started watching wrestling since "high spot" wrestling has become the popular style don't really understand or appreciate any of the older styles of wrestling. Somehow it's thought that "if a match doesn't have ten flips or a bunch of chops then it's not a good match." Some people forget that story telling is part of wrestling too, which is one of the good things about IWC because there's a mix of story lines and wrestling. If you watch any of the old NWA events, you will see there's a lot of good wrestling there and even more recent, try to find some old episodes of Raw from the Attitude era and you will see how effective a storyline can be for a show. I hope this doesn't offend you or anything and please don't think I'm trying to tell you what wrestling you should watch, I'm just adding my two cents to the discussion. I just hope that you actually take the time to consider the posts in this thread before immediately going back to claiming Japanese wrestling is better then any other wrestling.
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Flair
Feb 5, 2009 9:33:25 GMT -5
Post by stylesclash516 on Feb 5, 2009 9:33:25 GMT -5
Just a few mention a few things about what Styles Clash has said throughout this thread and since it would be somewhat difficult to discuss each particular point that was made about Japanese wrestling, I'll try to just respond to the main points. In some ways, comparing Flair to Misawa, Kawada, or Kobashi is like comparing apples to oranges because of how different the Japanese style is from the America style, which is a discussion for other thread or another time considering the many differences in each style that could effect how "good" a wrestler might seem in the ring. You had mentioned that Flair's matches are the same but have you seen any of Misawa's recent matches? He's so far past his prime it's almost sad. An example of this that some people on this board might have seen was his match against KENTA in ROH. The ONLY moves Misawa did the entire match were fore arms, a diving fore arm, and his finisher. That's literally it and 98% of the match was Misawa throwing fore arms. From what I've seen, Misawa just can't go in the ring at this point in his career. That's not trying to be negative about Misawa because as N~Con said, he is well known outside of wrestling and evidence of that is he's appeared in commercials in Japan. Flair however, was still able to go and stole the show with his retirement match so when it comes to being able to have good matches throughout a career, it would appear Flair is second to none but then again it's really all a matter of prospective. You had mentioned that Flair hasn't won any triple titles or whatever but that is really completely irrelevant and really an invalid point because that would be like saying "how many WWE titles has Kobashi held?" or "how many NWA titles has Kobashi held?" Does not holding those particular titles make Kobashi any less of a legend? I don't think so and I don't think Flair not holding the triple title or whatever makes him any less of a legend either. Finally, I've noticed that a lot of wrestling fans that have just started watching wrestling since "high spot" wrestling has become the popular style don't really understand or appreciate any of the older styles of wrestling. Somehow it's thought that "if a match doesn't have ten flips or a bunch of chops then it's not a good match." Some people forget that story telling is part of wrestling too, which is one of the good things about IWC because there's a mix of story lines and wrestling. If you watch any of the old NWA events, you will see there's a lot of good wrestling there and even more recent, try to find some old episodes of Raw from the Attitude era and you will see how effective a storyline can be for a show. I hope this doesn't offend you or anything and please don't think I'm trying to tell you what wrestling you should watch, I'm just adding my two cents to the discussion. I just hope that you actually take the time to consider the posts in this thread before immediately going back to claiming Japanese wrestling is better then any other wrestling. The point is that Misawa is still wrestling and Flair isn't. I find that the above Japanese guys matches are a lot better because of the fast paced hard hitting style and Flair's matches are just him getting beat up and some submisions. Just like Flair vs. Luger from Clash of The Champions, the commentators were ready to leave because of how bored they were. Each man was doing the same moves over and over again. I was comparing Kobashi and Misawa's matches to Flairs matches that took place in the 80s and 90s. To me the only reason Flair got 16 titles is because of his gimmick. Kobashi and Misawa, to my knowledge, had no gimmick other than they were going to go out there and knock your head off if need be. And Misawa and Kobashi haven't had a retirement match yet so how can you compare their retirement match to Flair's? Plus, didn't Flair loose like 10 retirement matches back in WCW? Plus take a few Triple Crowns off of Kobashi's record and he is less of a legend. Knock off a good 6 or 7 NWA titles and Flair is less of a legend. As far as US guys I think Terry Funk is waaaaay better then Flair. I think he can even make guys look better in the ring then Flair can.
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Flair
Feb 5, 2009 23:05:22 GMT -5
Post by Branden on Feb 5, 2009 23:05:22 GMT -5
I loved Flair's feud vs Sting. The whole 1990- July 1991 series was amazing. Watch Flair vs Pillman from april 1991 wcw sat night. It is amazing. Do I care for Flair as a person, not so much, but he did have many great in ring moments that are often forgot.
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Flair
Feb 14, 2009 15:59:46 GMT -5
Post by drwrestling on Feb 14, 2009 15:59:46 GMT -5
Just a few mention a few things about what Styles Clash has said throughout this thread and since it would be somewhat difficult to discuss each particular point that was made about Japanese wrestling, I'll try to just respond to the main points. In some ways, comparing Flair to Misawa, Kawada, or Kobashi is like comparing apples to oranges because of how different the Japanese style is from the America style, which is a discussion for other thread or another time considering the many differences in each style that could effect how "good" a wrestler might seem in the ring. You had mentioned that Flair's matches are the same but have you seen any of Misawa's recent matches? He's so far past his prime it's almost sad. An example of this that some people on this board might have seen was his match against KENTA in ROH. The ONLY moves Misawa did the entire match were fore arms, a diving fore arm, and his finisher. That's literally it and 98% of the match was Misawa throwing fore arms. From what I've seen, Misawa just can't go in the ring at this point in his career. That's not trying to be negative about Misawa because as N~Con said, he is well known outside of wrestling and evidence of that is he's appeared in commercials in Japan. Flair however, was still able to go and stole the show with his retirement match so when it comes to being able to have good matches throughout a career, it would appear Flair is second to none but then again it's really all a matter of prospective. You had mentioned that Flair hasn't won any triple titles or whatever but that is really completely irrelevant and really an invalid point because that would be like saying "how many WWE titles has Kobashi held?" or "how many NWA titles has Kobashi held?" Does not holding those particular titles make Kobashi any less of a legend? I don't think so and I don't think Flair not holding the triple title or whatever makes him any less of a legend either. Finally, I've noticed that a lot of wrestling fans that have just started watching wrestling since "high spot" wrestling has become the popular style don't really understand or appreciate any of the older styles of wrestling. Somehow it's thought that "if a match doesn't have ten flips or a bunch of chops then it's not a good match." Some people forget that story telling is part of wrestling too, which is one of the good things about IWC because there's a mix of story lines and wrestling. If you watch any of the old NWA events, you will see there's a lot of good wrestling there and even more recent, try to find some old episodes of Raw from the Attitude era and you will see how effective a storyline can be for a show. I hope this doesn't offend you or anything and please don't think I'm trying to tell you what wrestling you should watch, I'm just adding my two cents to the discussion. I just hope that you actually take the time to consider the posts in this thread before immediately going back to claiming Japanese wrestling is better then any other wrestling. The point is that Misawa is still wrestling and Flair isn't. I find that the above Japanese guys matches are a lot better because of the fast paced hard hitting style and Flair's matches are just him getting beat up and some submisions. Just like Flair vs. Luger from Clash of The Champions, the commentators were ready to leave because of how bored they were. Each man was doing the same moves over and over again. I was comparing Kobashi and Misawa's matches to Flairs matches that took place in the 80s and 90s. To me the only reason Flair got 16 titles is because of his gimmick. Kobashi and Misawa, to my knowledge, had no gimmick other than they were going to go out there and knock your head off if need be. And Misawa and Kobashi haven't had a retirement match yet so how can you compare their retirement match to Flair's? Plus, didn't Flair loose like 10 retirement matches back in WCW? Plus take a few Triple Crowns off of Kobashi's record and he is less of a legend. Knock off a good 6 or 7 NWA titles and Flair is less of a legend. As far as US guys I think Terry Funk is waaaaay better then Flair. I think he can even make guys look better in the ring then Flair can. I didn't compare Flair's retirement match to Misawa's retirement match and I know that Misawa is still wrestling in NOAH. I was just comparing their most recent matches and I didn't mention anything about a Misawa retirment match so I'm not sure how you could respond to it.
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ken
Hall-of-Fame
Posts: 248
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Flair
Feb 22, 2009 13:45:32 GMT -5
Post by ken on Feb 22, 2009 13:45:32 GMT -5
Did anyone see the story CBS news did last night on Ric Flair? Not too in depth, they basically compared him to Randy "The Ram" Robinson from "The Wrestler" , but still fun to watch and they portrayed both Indy and WWE in a good light. One thing that did catch my attention is when they said Indy wrestling attendance is at an all time high...found that statement interesting.
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